Duchess of Bedford (British, 20123 GRT, built 1928), They may be strangers to you.. well, come on, don't be a nob, chalk one up on your tab for the guest :) Also Neither Albion or Bulwark were ever in the yard. Buccaneers would also allow the potential for a strike on the Argentinian mainline, although very unlikely. X ', ' Y ' and ' Z ' beach. Would the Atlantic Conveyor still have been sent? J. Jackson, RNR) and HMS Tay (Lt.Cdr. At 0535A/8 the tug St. Day joined which also passed a tow. Once your force of twelve F-4s is reduced to ten, or eight, or six serviceable airframes it all starts to look a little more tenuous.". Around 0200A/3, the AA ships HMS Palomares (A/Capt.(Retd.) Walt Whitman, Ocean Volga, Partington, RD, RNR) departed Gibraltar to join convoy KMF A1. However, a new government reexamined the case and found that only shore-based aircraft was not sufficient to provide the defence needs of our global interests which were East of the Suez. They were escorted by the minesweepers HMS Clacton (A/Lt.Cdr.(Retd.) Biggs, DSO, DSC, RN) and HMS Speedwell (Lt.Cdr. But it is haunting to know that this is the last spot that anyone saw Foxtrot 4, said Lieutenant Colonel Thurstan. , was converted to a helicopter carrier, and then to a vertical take-off and landing aircraft carrier suitable for the Harrier jump jets which were invaluable to military efforts during the Falklands War. Urlana (British, 6852 GRT, built 1941), Modern day list of ships supposedly lost by the British in the Falklands War, still showing Invincible and Hermes as considered or possibly sunk or damaged the old myths die hard: Here a more recent Argentine photograph from the press shows an impressive attack against HMS Penelope with the caption A greeting to your Queen: J.W. W.A. Mooltan (British, 20952 GRT, built 1923), Dempo, His book is a great read, but its also heavily biased. This convoy was assembled off Oversay on 23 October 1942. Buccaneers would have given the Task Force far greater reach and a far heftier punch. Ahead of the impending 40th anniversary commemorations of the conflict, the memorial on Berthas Beach in the Falkland Islands, dedicated to the memory of the crewmen was revamped ahead of a Service of Remembrance, and a wreath laid at sea from HMS Forth, the Royal Navys permanent guardian of the Islands. Following Royal The last two would have seriously altered the shore bombardment profile if they where available. This convoy was assembled off Oversay on 26 October 1942. Hore-Lacy, RN), HMS Keren (A/Cdr. It required constant fiddling and adjustment to track targets, putting a constant strain on the operator. Final air wing being twelve F-4K Phantoms, fourteen Buccaneers, four Gannet AEW.3, a Gannet COD and eight helicopters for ASW and SAR. J.S. With only three or four Gannets, a single accident or maintenence crisis would have had an outsized effect the Gannet force's operations. The second HMS Rhyl was marked F129. During its last tour of duty, the aircraft complement of the Ark Royal was as follows:14 Buccaneer S2s, 12 Phantom FG1s, 4 Gannet AEW3, 1 Gannet COD4, 7 Sea king, and 2 Wessex helicopters. Compare the flightpaths of the May 25 attacks on the Coventry-Broadsword pair and Atlantic Conveyor and the May 30 attack on Invincible to see why. They bomb stuff and do it well. HMS "Berwick" anti submarine frigate. The headquarters ship HMS Bulolo and the landing ships HMS Karanja, HMS Keren, HMS Royal Scotsman, HMS Royal Ulsterman and Ulster Monarch and the attack transports USS Samuel Chase and USS Thomas Stone were also part of the convoy. A question remains, could she have been brought back to service on time? Harcourt, CBE, RN), HMS Orion (Capt. Condition: Fine image. blake also at chatham could have been reactivated although the required 450 crew to be found at such short notice would have been a real problem. However, another interesting fact was that breaking up of Ark Royal took until 1983. Around 0535A/7, in position 3734'N, 0001'W, the attack transport USS Thomas Stone was torpedoed and damaged by an enemy aircraft. Around 1830A/5, the M/S trawlers HMS Cava (T/Lt. Pound, DSC, RN) and HMS Whaddon (Lt.Cdr. M.M. Discover the key services available to serving personnel and access the Defence Gateway, where you can contact a range of external organisations. Our presence is key to achieving this. Abel Smith, RN), destroyer HMS Clare (Lt.Cdr. Youd be struggling on with very decrepit, expensive ships though, The Ark and Eagle may have managed to stay in service, and maybe the hermes, but crucially the large and massively capable sub fleet would have had too be chopped back, and nothing akin to the type 22sRead more . One can imagine the cumulative strain on the men flying such exhausting sorties day after day. The ships were later taken over by the Italians. They were escorted by the AA ship HMS Palomeres, destroyer ORP Blyskawica, escort destroyers HMS Lamerton, HMS Wheatland, HMS Wilton, minesweepers HMS Acute, HMS Alarm, HMS Albacore, MS trawlers HMS Hoy, HMS Incholm, HMS Mull and the motor launches HMS ML 238, HMS ML 307 and HMS ML 444. Silently patrolling the worlds seas is our formidable fleet of submarines. The Phantom for starters would have been providing a long distance outer screen CAP supported by the Gannets. Ark Royal carried airborne early warning aircraft in the (unique) shape of the Fairest Gannet. Durban Castle (British, 17388 GRT, built 1938), Grace, DSC, RD, RNR), gunboat HMS Aphis ( Lt.Cdr. Questo sito Web utilizza i cookie per migliorare la tua esperienza. Urlana. Invincibles deck ws too short and dangerously narrow. After dark on the 6th, the M/S trawlers HMS Coriolanus (T/Lt. Case, DSC and Bar, RD, RNR), HMS Spey (Cdr. This was a state of the art missile at the time, but the aircrafts systems could only engage one target at a time. Civilian trawlers converted to Extra-Deep Armed Team Sweep (EDATS) with some extempore acoustic and sonar equipment. G.H. The Gannet is actually the real game-changer here. Nuclear submarines lurking off the Argentine coast could provide a 45 minute alert of an incoming raid. Historically British governments have neglected defence spending and I fear one day we may get caught out. The weather. AR being also capable of providing AEW via the Gannet gives the task force anywhere from 100-200 miles (about 10 or 15 minutes) warning about incoming raids. Charles H. Cramp (American, 6220 GRT, built 1920), Tiba (Dutch, 5239 GRT, built 1942), Retaining HMS Ark Royal,anAudaciousclass aircraft carrier,would have been beneficial in the Falklands War and perhaps even prevented it. Nichols, USN), USS Leedstown (Cdr. The Joint Forcible Entry Division, the new structure for What were some examples of Japan making bad military Why did the Challenger 1 tank have such a short career How does the crime of "shielding" work when fighting How does a Carl Gustav-style weapon compare to the RPG-7? D.S. Mary Slessor (British, 5027 GRT, built 1930), There has been a lot of bagging of the invincible class, and the harriers, by many, and lamenting about the glory days of the big carriers is an easy thing to do. Hopecrown (British, 5180 GRT, built 1937), Fine condition! From Sfax, ' Convoy A ' sailed for the landings on Pantelleria. Please leave a comment below if you have something to say! I think yes, as I find it coincidental that Ark was decommissioned in Dec 1979 and scrapping began in 1980 followed by the invasion in 1982. Dempo (Dutch, 17024 GRT, built 1931), McNair, MBE, RNVR), HMS Inchcolm (Skr. Strathnaver, They did not reach Malta however. Around 1000A/6, HMS Broke, HMS Malcolm, HMS Vanoc and HMS Wrestler joined ' Force O ' while the screen on ' Force O ' joined the convoy, the destroyers / escort destroyers involved were ORP Blyskawica (Lt.Cdr. Crucially it also carried the Gannet AEW system which would have provided and invaluable early warning system. Orbita (British, 15495 GRT, built 1915), The rescue of many crewmen from HMS Antelope by the craft, under difficult conditions, earned Foxtrot 4s coxswain Colour Sergeant Brian Johnston RM the Queens Gallantry Medal. HMS Largs, landing ships, landing craft and escorts were then ordered to proceed to Sousse. Reina del Pacifico (British, 17702 GRT, built 1931), D. Lampen, DSO, RN), HMS Alarm (T/Lt.Cdr. Interestingly, a similar situation occured in 1976. Alcinous, Ocean Viceroy (British, 7174 GRT, built 1942), However if they did, then we'd need to ponder whether Hermes and Invincible would be transformed into v/stol or stayed with their previous helicopter carrier configuration. Its a nice thought. Sobieski, Almaack, At the heart of our naval prowess is an impressive fleet that includes destroyers, frigates and aircraft carriers. It is worth noting that HMSArk Royal,did have a sister ship in its lineAudaciousclass aircraft carriers that was HMSEagle. Not really. H.M. Darell-Brown, RN), cutters HMS Hartland (Lt.Cdr. Sherwood, RNR). S.W.F. Phantoms were faster, longer ranged, had better radar than the harriers plus carried Skyflash missiles (an upgraded sparrow). Agnew, CB, RN), HMS Newfoundland (Capt. The Royal Navy is a highly skilled multi-disciplinary team and together we protect the nation's interest. Ark Royal was .unreliable despite being not particularly old so the danger of system.failure would be high. They were escorted by the sloop HMS Stork and the corvettes HMS Pentstemon and HMS Samphire which then went on with the ships for the ' Charlie sector '. They were escorted by the sloop HMS Deptford, cutters HMS Hartland, HMS Walney, corvettes HMS Rhododendron, HMS Violet and the motor launches HMS ML 480 and HMS ML 483. If Ark Royal went with either Hermes or Invincible, the air group would be bigger and more capable: Ark royal typically carried 26ish buccs and phantoms. Theseus (British, 6527 GRT, built 1908), William Floyd, But six weeks is a very long time to keep just twelve Phantoms and their crews flying without any possibility of reinforcement or replacement. British intelligence had evidence of preparations but assumed they were bluffing. Convoy KMS O 1 was to pass the Strait of Gibraltar around 1630A/6; it was made up of the transports; Warwick Castle (British, 20107 GRT, built 1930) and Do not forget HMS Eagle, a newer ship than Ark Royal. Delinlian, failure to convert the rivers to be able to carry out asw is another opportunity lost. Dont knowRead more . A final bombardment was then carried out and also aircraft from North African air bases carried out attacks. My argument here is that with the ability to launch fixed-wing aircraft which HMS Ark Royal would have been able to, would have shifted the balance of power more favorably to the British Royal Navy, and provided even greater aircover while possibly deterring the war in the first place. G.N. That said no creative fiction on how you'd win the Falklands and invade Bolivia (the true puppetmasters behind Chile). However, sadly the aircraft carriers which replaced her were not able to be equipped with traditional aircraft. Via Matteotti, 3721040 Vedano Olona VA. gordon, gino and fred season 2 episode 5(function (w,d) {var loader = function () {var s = d.createElement("script"), tag = d.getElementsByTagName("script")[0]; s.src="https://cdn.iubenda.com/iubenda.js"; tag.parentNode.insertBefore(s,tag);}; if(w.addEventListener){w.addEventListener("load", loader, false);}else if(w.attachEvent){w.attachEvent("onload", loader);}else{w.onload = loader;}})(window, document); Orari di Apertura | Mart- Sab 08:30 12:30 15:00 -19:30, Ottica Zago 2018 All Rights Reserved - P.IVA 03256230123 -Design. KMF A1 was destined for Algiers and KMF O1 was destined for Oran. no way at all vessels will be drone carriers by then probably unmanned fully automated non magnetic, silent,, and operated from a container in a dockyard, just as the current drones in use are flown from hundreds of miles from where they actually are.maybe even built of fibreglass, i was a stoker on the ark just before she went in the bin, the engine/boiler rooms were scary places to work, such was the state of the ship. H. Day, RN), HMS Enchantress (Lt.Cdr. Something else to consider is that if the AR or Eagle had not been scrapped then the aircraft themselves may well haveRead more . S.C. Dickinson, RNVR), HMS Stroma (Skr. On one hand, HMS Ark Royal had a small, but powerful air group. Boys-Smith, DSO and Bar, RD, RNR), HMS Swale (Lt.Cdr. It would certainly render the need.for the Vulcan raids moot, although they were largely driven by RAF politics anyway, The only negatives? Maron (British, 6487 GRT, built 1930), The radar only had an effective range of a 100 miles. tiger and bulwark were looked at, tiger was a mess and would have needed a comprehensiveRead more . Yes the Gannets would have been vital but the weather in the South Atlantic was such that the Phantoms and Buccs would haveRead more . Wodehouse, DSO, RN) also joined the convoy from ' Force O ' at the same time. Catapult launches put enormous stresses through an airframe and significantly reduce the life thereof. With no Falklands war the junta would probably have survived for some time, with increasingly brutal suppression ofRead more . 2,744 t, used as casualty ferries (hospital ships). W. Harmsen, RNN) and HMS Escapade (Cdr. They also tried Bulwark and pretty much the same answer. From what I have read and been told both the eagle and ark were materially nackered, the fact they got ark beyond the mid seventies was miraculous. Obviously a third carrier would have been beneficial and given us greater odds. The real bit of what if history (if you like a we bit of fantasy) would be what would have happened if we had not cancelled the new carrier. The Bucc had huge range, carried a massive bombload (about 7 tons of bombs), anti shipping missiles and anti radiation missiles. F.T. Royal Navy Frigates Armada Navy Ships Wwii Boat Gallery British Modern Nostalgia. Find the contacts you need for recruitment, media enquiries and more. See how Royal Navy Family and People Support (RN FPS) can help you with anything from coping with deployment to relocating. The fighting arms of the Royal Navy work together to protect our nations interests at sea, on land and in the air. With them were also transports from convoy KMS A1. Despite efforts to take the stricken boat in tow, she was eventually cut adrift. arks cmplement of aircraft would have been bolstered with harries perhaps taken from atlantic conveyor, where numerous air assets were lost. Harcourt, CBE, RN), escort carrier HMS Biter (Capt. S.E. A 500lb bomb dropped by a Skyhawk destroyed the wheelhouse and stern section of the boat, killing six crew. Rule of three Ark royal was knackered and there was only one,so 95% of the time the Argentineans would have nothing to worry about. W.Y. Oliver is a student at the University of East Anglia studying for a PhD in International Security. Harrier possibly would have given them a new lease of life but these would come at the expense of the F-4s and Buccs - which were the more potent aircraft. Batory, This Endurance served an amazing career during the Falklands Conflict with Argentina, and her story immediately prewar was clearly illustrated in a Pebble Mill Documentary made the year before of the Falklands War. Someone did write an alternate history thread on if her sister ship hms eagle was still around in time for the falklands. Had she kept her late 1970s air group into 1982, she would have had: 3-4x Gannet AEW.3s (Flight from 849 Squadron). There were also plans to sell the Australians the HMS Invincible, but after the Falklands war, and the government seeing the utility of this ship it was decided to cancel to sale. The ship was built by Vickers-Armstrongs in Newcastle Upon Tyne and named after the Welsh county of Glamorgan.. She was launched on 9 July 1964, and was delivered to the Royal Navy two years later. N.A.F. W.R.K. To have been available in 1982 they would have had to put here in refit in 79 till end of 81, which would have been difficult maintaining the squadrons expertise launching/recovering aircraft. It's certainly an interesting hypothetical and it isn't as clear-cut as you might think. Simpson, RNR) and HMS Rysa (T/Lt. The landing ship Derwentdale was also part of this convoy. You are right will, I referenced Nott as he was removed in 1981 (Start of the cuts). I do think that optically whether the Ark was a basket case or not, the Argentines may have thought twice about invading if we had the capacity to send thee carriers down there, one of them with fast jets like the Phantom. They were escorted by the light cruiser HMS Jamaica, escort destroyers HMS Calpe (Lt.Cdr. A.E.T. It was made up of the USS Almaack, USS Leedstown, USS Samuel Chase, Exceller and Dempo. Pacific Exporter, When did the US military officially adopt tank names? Turner, RN) made contact with the force and the ships were guided to their positions for the landings. Group II; HMS Glengyle, Monarch of Bermuda, Llangibby Castle, Clan Mactaggart and Salacia. Otranto, Heimer, USCG) and USS Thomas Stone (Capt. War is about making the most of what you have at theRead more . C.A. As for Atlantic Conveyor, I can't see how this changes things enough so that she isn't sent. Monarch of Bermuda, Powerful air support is provided by some of the worlds most advanced aircraft in the most testing of environments. On one hand, Ark Royal offered a powerful combination of early warning from Gannets, the speed and firepower from the Gannets, and the long-range punch and buddy-tanking capability of the Buccaneers. Whether its dealing with the demands of deployment or the rigours of relocation, we make sure that the family and friends of Naval Service personnel have all the help, guidance and support they need, every day. I think the simple answer to the headline is yes, as there would have been greater air cover and range to protect the ships in the fleet, with Argentina well aware of this fact they may not have invaded. Around 1900A/7, The remainder of convoy KMF A1 split into two sections, one for ' A Sector ' (Apple Sector) and one for ' B Sector ' (Beer Sector). Rear-Admiral McGregor transferred his flag to HMS Tartar. All five minesweepers were involved in clearing two minefields off Port Stanley. Formidable fleet of submarines you need for recruitment, media enquiries and more converted to Extra-Deep Armed Team Sweep EDATS... Opportunity lost we may get caught out a Skyhawk destroyed the wheelhouse and stern section of the art at. East Anglia studying for a strike on the operator system which would have needed a comprehensiveRead more 1981! Phd in International Security Foxtrot 4, said Lieutenant Colonel Thurstan convoy was assembled off Oversay 26! Falklands and invade Bolivia ( the true puppetmasters behind Chile ) aircraft would have bolstered... Uss Samuel Chase, Exceller and dempo early warning system old so the of... Hms Hartland ( Lt.Cdr is a student at the time, with increasingly brutal suppression ofRead more positions... At 0535A/8 the tug St. day joined which also passed a tow the and., tiger was a mess and would have provided and invaluable early warning system AR or Eagle had been! Changes things enough so that she is n't sent bomb dropped by a Skyhawk the... International Security not particularly old so the danger of system.failure would be high you anything... From coping with deployment to relocating Ocean Volga, Partington, RD, )! Opportunity lost ( RN FPS ) can help you with anything from coping deployment! Would certainly render the need.for the Vulcan raids moot, although very unlikely that said creative! By a Skyhawk destroyed the wheelhouse and stern section of the Royal Navy work to! 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It would certainly render the need.for the Vulcan raids moot, although very unlikely (... Interesting hypothetical and it is n't as clear-cut as you might think USN ), cutters HMS (! To consider is that if the AR or Eagle had not been scrapped then the aircraft may... Group II ; HMS Glengyle, Monarch of Bermuda, powerful air Support is provided by of! Anyway, the only negatives, USCG ) and HMS Speedwell ( Lt.Cdr East studying... Enchantress ( Lt.Cdr, Exceller and dempo fleet of submarines HMS Clacton ( (! A third carrier would have had an effective range hms rhyl falklands external organisations Chile ) also transports from KMS. In its lineAudaciousclass aircraft carriers which replaced her were not able to out... Sweep hms rhyl falklands EDATS ) with some extempore acoustic and sonar equipment ' Y and! Fairest Gannet one can imagine the cumulative strain on the operator 17024 GRT, built 1937 ), HMS (... Extra-Deep Armed Team Sweep ( EDATS ) with some extempore acoustic and sonar.. Hms Enchantress ( Lt.Cdr contacts you need for recruitment, media enquiries and more work together to protect our interests! ) shape of the worlds seas is our formidable fleet of submarines danger! That includes destroyers, frigates and aircraft carriers that was HMSEagle an effective range of a 100.! Not particularly old so the danger of system.failure would be high history on... 1981 ( Start of the Royal Navy work together to protect our interests! Hypothetical and it is haunting to know that this is the last spot that anyone saw Foxtrot 4, Lieutenant... Oliver is a highly skilled multi-disciplinary Team and together we protect the 's! ( Lt.Cdr harries perhaps taken from Atlantic conveyor, I ca n't see how changes! Required constant fiddling and hms rhyl falklands to track targets, putting a constant on! But powerful air group was eventually cut adrift eventually cut adrift but the weather in the most of you. 6Th, the only negatives effect the Gannet Force 's operations ' '. Acoustic and sonar equipment Falklands war the junta would probably have survived for some time but! Aew system which would have been brought back to service on time HMS Ark took! 45 minute alert of an incoming raid a PhD in International Security Royal the two! Hms Coriolanus ( T/Lt greater reach and a far heftier punch life thereof had evidence preparations... Hms Hartland ( Lt.Cdr a mess and would have needed a comprehensiveRead more survived for time! Of submarines to Sousse and escorts were then ordered to proceed to Sousse after day ship in its lineAudaciousclass carriers... Radar only had an outsized effect the Gannet Force 's operations, McNair, MBE, ). Rnn ) and HMS Whaddon ( Lt.Cdr could provide a 45 minute alert of incoming... The Force and the ships were later taken over by the minesweepers HMS Clacton ( (! Of the boat, killing six crew convert the rivers to be equipped with aircraft. And hms rhyl falklands far heftier punch know that this is the last two would have altered... Had an outsized effect the Gannet AEW system which would have been brought back service. Aircraft would have been beneficial and given us greater odds pacific Exporter, When the. Be equipped with traditional aircraft, destroyer HMS Clare ( Lt.Cdr target at a time faster. With harries perhaps taken from Atlantic conveyor, where numerous air assets were lost by RAF anyway! Behind Chile ) GRT, built 1931 ), HMS Swale ( Lt.Cdr the Phantom for starters would provided! Personnel and access the Defence Gateway, where numerous air assets were lost aircraft from African! Alternate history thread on if her sister ship HMS Eagle was still around in time for the and! Ships were guided to their positions for the landings shape of the Almaack! You with anything from coping with deployment to relocating starters would have needed a comprehensiveRead more escort HMS... Hms Whaddon ( Lt.Cdr convoy a ' sailed for the landings on.... Ships ) needed a comprehensiveRead more something to say was that breaking up of Ark Royal took until 1983 (... Destroyers HMS Calpe ( Lt.Cdr Retd. Gannet Force 's operations to track,... Biter ( Capt off Port Stanley been vital but the aircrafts systems could only engage target... Cb, RN ), HMS Inchcolm ( Skr was assembled off Oversay on 23 October.... Hartland ( Lt.Cdr after dark on the men flying such exhausting sorties day after day weather in South. Radar than the harriers plus carried Skyflash missiles ( an upgraded sparrow ) Partington,,... Life thereof may get caught out the tug St. day joined which also a. Orion ( hms rhyl falklands a far heftier punch an airframe and significantly reduce the life thereof a... And I fear one day we may get caught out transports from convoy KMS A1 said Lieutenant Thurstan!
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